tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post7601580156440275646..comments2024-03-23T07:11:28.516+01:00Comments on Dan Koehl's Blog: Can elephants suffer in elephant sanctuaries, as an effect of volonteers exploit and opinions?DanKoehlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18245638586616063380noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-83208252093463321482016-05-17T04:48:05.372+02:002016-05-17T04:48:05.372+02:00I believe the word that could be used, for those &...I believe the word that could be used, for those "suffering" from emotional overzealousness, would be "seeking relevance". And the ARAs know this. And the propaganda is aimed at this emotional "need". I have personally seen major errors in elephant handling amongst the no contact sanctuaries, that have led to injuries and deaths, that, even if they had followed their own "commandments" could have been avoided. But without bull hooks, and hands on close contact, the tools for handling a 8000-12,000pound mind, are extremely limited, leading to drugging, and ill behaviours. I know some animals have been herbally reconditioned, for nominal control. I appreciate your article, and totally agree. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606881347286487438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-76910161396489421192012-11-15T00:30:00.382+01:002012-11-15T00:30:00.382+01:00This is a truly excellent article, Dan. I simply ...This is a truly excellent article, Dan. I simply did not know how bad things were. Oh, how I <i>loath</i> animalentalists. Anastasia F-Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01284602529524462457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-88666567459605990312012-05-16T07:08:40.803+02:002012-05-16T07:08:40.803+02:00Thank you Dan.Thank you Dan.Jeff Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-32290622451460505252012-04-13T23:24:08.867+02:002012-04-13T23:24:08.867+02:00rather than calling it captive why not "in ou...rather than calling it captive why not "in our care"? Zoo elephants do a great service to their wild kin through education and they are in our care while they do so. the word captive can be used as a tool of propaganda, its captive, the bullhook is a tool of domincance, all words used strategically to play on the heartstrings of the emotionally feeble in my opinion to cash in on peoples bank accounts. Sanctuaries in North America do not educate the public about wild elephants just the abuses they claim exist in zoos and circuses. And those "who cannot bear the animals pain" are smitten by the message being delivered. They can relate, they project their own emotions and also satisfy their own emotions. they cant bear it so if they support and donate their own pain is alleviated, in effect using the animals suffering to alleviate their own emotional ills. This is self serving and something animal rights activists need to be more honest with themselves about. If you emotionally balanced you can find the true path to caring for animals and evolving as a human if your emotions tips the scales in your everyday actions, outweighing rational thinking this is where we run into the great divide which is between those who have hope and believe in conservation and those who are in despair and have abandoned hope for the future of wild species therefore they focus on what they feel is within their grasp in the here and now. Sad but true. Allot of wasted energy and money that could be going into saving wild species for the sake of the few vs the many.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-7109185445889213222012-04-13T13:38:42.731+02:002012-04-13T13:38:42.731+02:00Thank you, dear Anonym, I believe you have managed...Thank you, dear Anonym, I believe you have managed to interprete my message pretty clear. We can not assume that all is well with elephants, just because they are walking under the label "sanctuary".<br /><br />And we can not assume that elephants suffer, because they are walking under the label "Zoo".<br /><br />And we have to consult our brain, not our heart, to realize that.<br /><br />And as far as I can see, theres no "non-commerical" elephant sanctuaries. Since all of them are private, and often with a non-transparent economy, they are in fact more commercial than any government zoo, in my opinion.DanKoehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245638586616063380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-85607617990155648472012-04-13T13:37:54.290+02:002012-04-13T13:37:54.290+02:00I agree to this also, however, theres no domestica...I agree to this also, however, theres no domesticated elephants. Until 1958, I guess a second generation elephant was very rare. The first 2:nd generation in my database is Charkowtschanka born 1958 at Kharkiv Zoo. <br /><br />I can not find any 3 generation captive elephant until Bernhardine, born 1984 in Rotterdam Zoo (Diergaarde Blijdorp).<br /><br />Today, there a couple of 4 generation elephants. Still, 4 generation is more or less nothing, viewed in issues of domestication, and/or selection of genetical material.DanKoehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245638586616063380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-88764453662059543742012-04-13T08:23:44.734+02:002012-04-13T08:23:44.734+02:00How is a sanctuary any less "captive" th...How is a sanctuary any less "captive" than a zoo or circus? If captivity causes fear hormones, then a sanctuary elephant would have them too. I'm not familiar with your reference, but was it on first generation captives, second generation captives, or what? Where do domestic creatures fit? Elephants have been used by people for about as long as horses, though I wouldn't claim they are as domesticated. They are certainly not completely without human intervention. The elephants mahouts (and zoos) have have been chosen for temperament and ability to adapt to humans. I would think that would matter to their "fear hormones." I'm sure there is some genetic survival component to it, and that is one of the things we select for in domestication (again, I'm not claiming elephants are domesticated, but living with humans for so long clearly would at least affect their selection pressures. similar to the beginning domestication of other livestock). <br /><br />If no elephants should be captive in any environment and never interact with "capturers" like mahouts, then there will soon be no elephants. I think some ARAs would prefer it that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-23957964714161373842012-04-13T04:56:05.421+02:002012-04-13T04:56:05.421+02:00the very point Dan is trying to make is how the hu...the very point Dan is trying to make is how the human race is using animals and our perceived or even self inflicted sense of trauma and despair upon the animals, projecting our own human emotion for the purpose of defining one's self as an enlightner of the human race, exploiting the animal unconsciously. A hypocrisy for those who campaign against zoos for example as exploiters, for money. Its like "look at me I am a superior human I see the light and will help take the human race to a higher level of consciousness" This kind of thinking is rampant and people do use the rescue or support of rescue via "sanctuary" for example to define themselves in a complicated world. Most cannot work hands on for the instant results they need to satisfy their emotional reactions to animal suffering, especially when dealing with species other than pets like cats and dogs. To work cooperatively to save a species where the results of your efforts might not be felt or seen until long after you are dead isnt good enough, people want to feel good now and to create their self definition now, it is not instantly gratifying enough otherwise. Sanctuaries in North America could fall under this category as well. They make money off these animals, keep them in enclosures and display them to the public, the difference that divides is their mandate, they define their purpose as "good" vs "bad". But that is their definition of what bad is and that definition breaks hearts with expensive advertising campaigns and often loaded propaganda. In summary perhaps the point is that people need to start educating themselves and evaluating their ideologies and those they support based on those ideologies with more intellect and logic and less bias and emotional responses so that we can better define what is good and what is bad not just because of a label that seems to match your own labels set influenced by opponents in competition with one another for money and attention and support. If we let emotional intelligence degrade to the point that emotions are driving our decisions we are not evolving as a species we are devolving, there has to be balance. Example, we can just say all zoos are bad because they are not all bad and we cannot say all sanctuaries are good because they are not all good. We must explore the grey matter inbetween, without apathy and laziness. By sourcing and learning and researching these causes we choose to a adhere to so strongly rather than just letting others define the cause for us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-75189294069242906572012-01-03T18:16:10.785+01:002012-01-03T18:16:10.785+01:00Im sorry, theres, to my knowledge, no scientific &...Im sorry, theres, to my knowledge, no scientific "elephant sanctuary". The elephant with huge large abcesses seem to be as less updated on what you are talking about as me. The pictures are not assumptions, they are taken with a Nikon D90. Appearently, a "sanctuary" can not provide basic medical care for needing animals. It doesnt make a sanctuary worse than a zoo, or a circus, its just prove that the label is a fake, nothing more, nothing less. And that elephants can suffer in a sanctuary because of human religions or philosophy. Which means that the label is false, elephants sanctuaries, does not always, per defenition, provide a safe environment for elephants. Especially not for those that needs urgent medical care.DanKoehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245638586616063380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-71302403090332120572011-12-31T21:29:41.063+01:002011-12-31T21:29:41.063+01:00It's not "fance words about ethics and tr...It's not "fance words about ethics and traumas." It's peer-reviewed SCIENCE. Sadly you are not informed and up to date. No one is saying to neglect physical injuries. But those are assumptions you make along with assuming that I am implying elephants should not get good care. You are missing a lot of relevant points. It's too bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-51814763224744105852011-12-31T13:27:54.605+01:002011-12-31T13:27:54.605+01:00Dear Anonym, I hope all fance words about ethics a...Dear Anonym, I hope all fance words about ethics and traumas can cure the elephant with the abcesses. Or others, that died because of false diet and teeth problems. I think Elephants need good care, not words, not philosphy, or ethics.DanKoehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245638586616063380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-86538682441064275002011-12-31T03:21:01.394+01:002011-12-31T03:21:01.394+01:00Another perspective.
For centuries, world culture...Another perspective.<br /><br />For centuries, world cultures have arisen and been shaped by dominator cultures. Dominator cultures are systems of top-down rankings ultimately backed up by fear or force. In these millennia-old worldwide authoritarian social models, women, children, and animals are subordinated. Animal captivity and domination is a result of this history. <br /><br />Science has recently uncovered how destructive captivity and domination are to many animals given their shared biology (eg, mammals). Captivity/being dominated is a lifestyle that bathes the body in fear hormones. Chronic fear or traumatic stress impairs genes in neuron and synapse generation and compromises immunology. This can lead to other serious physical problems and a shortened life. <br /><br />“Internet experts” and other animal advocates recognize suffering and want it to end no matter where it exists in the world. Some may see this as a cultural intrusion. But causing deliberate prolonged suffering is antithetical to the laws of nature itself. As trauma expert, Dr. Paul F. Dell states: “Deliberate cruelty and the instrumental use of others is the sole province of homo sapiens.” It is this conscious or unconscious knowing that drives many in their efforts to counter traditional animal management styles. <br /><br />Sadly, Asia has a heavy tourism industry. Many tourists want to experience different human-animal connections than they can at home. As we all know, ignorance among tourists is rampant. <br /><br />By understanding our history and acknowledging new science we will be able to effectively move the human race beyond the historical confines of a dominator culture which will benefit all beings on this planet. Understanding and defining true sanctuary is a step in that direction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-6208117697130124012011-12-30T07:20:42.451+01:002011-12-30T07:20:42.451+01:00I think a good sanctuary should do whatever needed...I think a good sanctuary should do whatever needed to take good, responsible, care of their elephants, as any location with elephants, anywhere. And the focus shall be on the basic needs of the elephants, not the illusions laymen have about good care. I fhooks are needed, they should be used, since philosophy does not cure abcesses. A certain degree of control is essential to provide a safe and well managed environment for captive elephants, anywhere. And a good sanctuary should be focused on the elephants needs, not the visiting guests/volunteers. At best, a sanctuary should also be located where elephants can enjoy as much natural habitat as possible (forest, not previous farm land), even if its not so close to the mainstream tourist areas.DanKoehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245638586616063380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-83669445690226652242011-12-23T22:10:47.413+01:002011-12-23T22:10:47.413+01:00How would you answer the question, Dan? Are there ...How would you answer the question, Dan? Are there any good sanctuaries, and what is the definition of a good sanctuary?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7719911693377170022.post-29687553605075152142011-12-22T19:44:12.770+01:002011-12-22T19:44:12.770+01:00GFAS has a good article:
The Truth About Sanctuari...GFAS has a good article:<br />The Truth About Sanctuaries - Legitimate Sanctuaries versus Pseudo-Sanctuaries<br />http://www.sanctuaryfederation.org/gfas/for-public/truth-about-sanctuaries/<br />It's important to have a common definition. Of course, those that profit off tourism like using the word "sanctuary" to attract business.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com